http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/09/26/o.improve.your.marriage/index.html
What an absolutely horrid article! Oh no, guys get a little uncomfortable when discussing important matters! Instead of finding the actual solution, let's just ignore it, maybe it'll go away on its own rather than make someone *uncomfortable*. I hate to break it to ya, but those feelings were put there as an evolutionary warning switch that something is wrong. You're not supposed to just hit the bypass switch and go about your business, you're supposed to investigate what the problem is and put the fire out. Maybe he's uncomfortable because you're hitting a nerve. Maybe he's uncomfortable because you're being a bitch. Either way, that discomfort means something and he should do something about it. And that bullshit about the gender differences has been debunked dozens of times over already. Girl and boy reactions to things are culturally ingrained. I'm not even going to get into the studies of humans and species who do not behave in this manner or the "defrocking" of those individuals who started these myths in the first place. When boys get chastised for crying or "acting like a girl" or a baby, they learn not to. The programming starts from birth. I actually had to teach myself *to* cry because my method of anger management involved breaking of furniture as a child since my parents punished me for crying - all that anger and pain had to go somewhere and I just stored it up inside until it would explode in a fit of temper at small irritations. Sound a bit like a guy? Programming.
Then, the assumption that women wanting to talk about the relationship EQUALS women complaining about what men are doing wrong and justifying all men from not wanting to talk! That's part of the problem right there! For the *people* (it's not just women who do this) who do nothing but complain about how their partner is always wrong, they need to learn not to do that. For people who don't do that (including women), well, what can I say? They're not doing that!
Basically, these hacks' solution is to fuck your husband before you try to discuss anything you think he's doing wrong. Because "relationship discussions" *mean* he's doing something wrong and it couldn't possibly be that the female is having her own issues. But if you fuck him first, he'll be more willing to listen to you tell him what he's doing wrong. Or something. Maybe it's just me, but I find it a little difficult to get aroused when I'm pissed off at that person, and the idea of having sex with him for the purpose of getting him to listen to me when I try to make him change just sounds manipulative. OK, to be fair, she just says to "connect nonverbally" and includes sex as one of those ways. However, not everyone connects in the same way, and some men really *do* connect verbally.
Then she goes on to give an anecdotal story about how it finally occurred to her one day how "terrifying" it must be for her husband to have to initiate sex all the time and how "ashamed" he must feel at having to initiate. OK, first of all, if it really was a problem, the guy could have said so back when they were dating and saved himself years of being terrified. Second, after a lifetime of conditioning oneself to the "seeker" role, it's not nearly as terrifying as it is to someone who has spent her life in the "sought" role to break free of that role for the first time. Third, it's not nearly so terrifying to either gender when you're in a long-term relationship with a pattern and history of each partner being receptive of each others' attempts at physical affection. The fact that she's "terrified" implies, to me, that she doesn't expect her husband to respond positively to her touch and the fact that she assumes *he* is always terrifed implies that she often rebuffs his affections. It sounds like they don't really like each other much.
I'm really not much "terrified" or "ashamed" to initiate sex, even though I *don't* actually do it that often. I sort of assume that my partners want to have sex with me and, even if they don't want to *right this minute*, overall, one of the reasons why the're my partners and not my "friends" is because they like having sex with me. I'm pretty sure my partners feel this way about me, or at least understand that this is how I think about our sexual relationship, not because they somehow gleaned it from my brain by osmosis but because I talk to them about our attitudes and beliefs about sex and other important issues. If this is a surprise to any of my partners, well, consider this an opportunity to bring up the subject and we can talk about whatever you were unaware of. I also understand that a rejection of the moment is not the same thing as a rejection of me as a person, so I'm not "terrified" of being rejected or ashamed at wanting sex from my partners who, I hope, already know that I see them as sexual beings and that we have a relationship with a sexual component. Perhaps a healthy attitude about sex would calm all those terrifiying and shameful feelings?
So the author suggests learning to empathize and to see each other's point of view. Without talking. You're just supposed to assume that, if you were in his place, what you feel is what he would feel, and now you treat him how you think you would want to be treated if you were in that position without asking for confirmation that those are, indeed, the feelings he has in that position. If you have made it this far in your relationship without learning his point of view directly, I can pretty much guarantee that what you assume he feels based on what you think you would feel in his place is not actually what he feels.
"The problem is that when you're angry, you're wrong even when you're right because you can't see the other person's perspective,"
Or, I'm angry because I'm able to look at both sides of the story and have come to the conclusion that he's wrong. Or, more likely, I'm angry because he's being a dickhead and treating me poorly and, even when not angry, I can't see the other person's position for being a dickhead as reasonable or justifiable.
- and then talk.
Wait, I thought the advice was to not talk? The article goes on to suggest that people should talk respectfully and not criticize people. In other words, be nice to the people you love, don't be an asshole! What a fucking concept!
no subject
Date: 9/30/08 12:18 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 9/30/08 12:25 am (UTC)From:This is beyond unhealthy, but it is amazingly common.
Being the one who says yes or no to sex not only is a position of power, but it also is claiming a moral high ground.
There can be other situations and dynamics at work, and it won't always be for this reason (one partner may simply have a low libido). There are lots of reasons. But I think this is the common one that would cause fear and shame related to initiating.
And it's likely worse for a woman, since she may well have been taught that good girls don't want sex. But good girls don't say no to their husband. And they make sure he enjoys it. Although they shouldn't enjoy it. Although if they don't then they're frigid bitches. If they do, they're sluts.
Mmmm, I love our culture.
no subject
Date: 9/30/08 12:53 am (UTC)From:Also, as you mention, since women are so commonly brought up with those conflicting programs (causing an error due to program loops that results in these bizarre assumptions), that's the basis for why I say I can pretty much guarantee that how she thinks she would feel in his place is pretty much not how he actually feels. With the caveat that they have made it to several years of marriage before she had the "epiphany" that he might be feeling anything at the idea of being the initiator.
And then all this bad cultural programming gets wrapped up in self-help drivel and soundbite therapy where people can say "save your marriage by not talking to each other!" or offer advice to be kind to each other because no one is and these people can actually make money off of this! It just makes my head hurt.
I just found out that one of my friends credits me for the bulk of his effort in saving his relationship because I helped him to understand his girlfriend better. Most of what I said was "talk to her".